Seattle-based therapist, author, and poet Sam Louie joins DJ Chuang to discuss his newly released workbook, Redefining Asian Shame: From Silence to Self-Acceptance — available now to download on Gumroad. (Listen to this episode for a 40% off discount code.)
Sam shares how the workbook gives the readers to engage an interactive process to move from Asian shame to a healthy acceptance of oneself.
Sam explains his mind shift in how he clinically approaches shame, informed by the Internal Family Systems (IFS) model and the concept of “no bad parts.” Rather than viewing shame as something to be excised or hated, Sam has come to see it as carrying an original protective purpose — one that, when understood, opens the door to real healing.
The episode covers:
- Counseling vs. coaching — a quick but meaningful distinction around past-focus vs. goal-orientation
- The cultural weight of Asian shame — a Chinese proverb frames how generational pressure to not shame the family shapes nervous systems across generations, often below the level of conscious awareness
- Shame and the body — why helping Asian American clients tune into physiological responses can unlock emotional awareness they’ve long suppressed
- Shame-driven behaviors beyond addiction — perfectionism, workaholism, and the relentless chase for the next promotion are explored as shame’s less-obvious expressions
- What healing actually looks like — not perfection, but integration: recognizing triggers, working through shame spirals around slips, and uncovering negative core beliefs like “I’m not good enough” that predate therapy by decades
Show Notes
- Sam Louie’s official website is samlouiemft.com
- Sam Louie on Substack: SamLouieTherapy.substack.com
- Redefining Asian Shame: From Silence to Self-Acceptance (workbook)
- Books by Sam Louie: Passport to Shame: From Asian Immigrant to American Addict; Asian Honor: Overcoming the Culture of Silence; Asian Shame and Addiction: Suffering in Silence
- No Bad Parts: Healing Trauma and Restoring Wholeness with the Internal Family Systems Model by Richard Schwartz
- The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk
Transcript
DJ: This is the Erasing Shame podcast. Welcome back. This is DJ Chuang, and today I’m with Sam Louie. Welcome again from Seattle.
Sam: Thank you, DJ. Great to be a part of this.
DJ: You’ve been here on Erasing Shame a couple of times before — we’ll link that in the show notes at erasingshame.com. I was thrilled to reconnect with you, to catch up and to hear about this new workbook you’ve just released: Redefining Asian Shame: From Silence to Self-Acceptance. One of the things that amazes me about your online work — and I know you do in-person therapy up in Seattle — are you doing telehealth as well?
Sam: Mm-hmm. Depending on the issues at hand, I do offer coaching. If it doesn’t feel as intensely clinical — where I have to worry about significant depression or self-harm — clients can go through the coaching route.
DJ: And, since we’re on that rabbit trail — what’s the difference between counseling and coaching?
Sam: Counseling, or therapy, is really about going back into the past. There’s a lot more emphasis on past trauma. Whereas coaching, we try to make it more goal-oriented — what are you looking forward to seeing in yourself? It doesn’t mean you don’t visit the past, but when someone gets stuck in the past, that’s a big differentiator — that’s when it enters the domain of therapy rather than coaching.
DJ: That’s a quick and helpful distinction. In our time and age, attention spans are shorter and we need help getting through complexities. One of the things I’ve been most touched by is your online work over the years — you’re one of the most prolific writers on Asian Americans and shame, particularly on Psychology Today, and now you’re on Substack. We’re actually recording this on Substack. How has that experience been so far?
Sam: I’ve enjoyed it. Beyond the creative and artistic freedom to write whatever I want, there’s also the comment section where readers can engage and I can respond. Whereas with Psychology Today, I have no idea what happens — they actually turned off comments not because of me, but in general because there were too many to filter through. Substack is still relatively new for me — I started just a couple of months ago — but it’s very freeing. If I have a poem or a thought, it doesn’t matter how short or long, I can put it out there. And I can be more personal, whereas Psychology Today really wanted things to feel more clinical.
DJ: I’m glad you can show more of your personal side, because I think that connects even deeper and richer — especially when it comes to the topic of shame.
Sam: Yes, and I think part of the healing is very much that relational and personal part.
DJ: So in this conversation, I want to drill down on how you put this healing workbook together — for Asian Americans to have a resource that addresses the complex layers of cultural and family shame. Start us off with a quick intro on what this workbook aims to do.
Sam: Sure. It was a progression from my more recent book, Passport to Shame: From Asian Immigrant to American Addict — talking about my own story as a Chinese immigrant from Hong Kong, and the addictions in my family and in my own generation. But after that, I thought: people read it, they can relate, it’s story and narrative form. And both as a therapist and as a reader myself, I’ve gravitated toward workbook-style books because you can actually write and process things rather than just reading. So the idea took a few years to come together.
I also didn’t want to just do a companion workbook to Passport to Shame — I wanted something that stands on its own, that readers don’t have to have read the first book to use. And clinically, I’ve started to view shame differently. The title actually came from one of my poems.
DJ: You’re a poet, a journalist, a therapist — now expanding into training and authoring, and sharing more of your story. I see the growth. And a workbook is especially valuable because the person literally participates in the exercises you present.
Sam: I actually included a few poems in the workbook. This one is called “Redefining Shame”:
I used to hate my shame — run away from it, hide from it, ignore it, deny it, pretend it’s not there. Now, like a parent to a child, I embrace it. No more shame in naming it, sharing it, using it to my advantage, helping others heal. Where I once whimpered, I now boldly proclaim it. Where I once drowned in it, I’ve harnessed it like a mule. Use it as a tool. I’ve redefined it. No longer a soul crusher. I use my shame as a light for others to escape self-blame.
After I started thinking about the workbook, I realized — maybe the title of that poem could be the main title. And it fits, because the goal is to redefine shame, not to “punt it out of my body” or hate on it. That was my old style — like, just excise it. But this is different.
DJ: I hear you. The reason I didn’t say “erase” or “get rid of” shame on this podcast is that erasing is a process — not having shame overwhelm and squash you, but as we erase it, we move into healthier living. So I’d love to hear: what parts of shame are you redefining that help a person get to health?
Sam: The newest clinical growth for me comes from a modality called IFS — Internal Family Systems. Have you heard of it?
DJ: Yes.
Sam: The founder wrote a book called No Bad Parts. I remember reading that and thinking — no bad parts. It doesn’t matter how negatively impactful something is; the part itself is not inherently bad. So I started reconceptualizing shame. I always thought shame was bad. But if we accept that it’s not a bad part, then what is its original purpose? What is its positive intention or protective function?
When I went back and thought about different shame incidents in my life, yes, they had a negative impact. But the intention was usually either positive or protective. For example, my initial upbringing involved stoicism around emotions — we weren’t taught to be emotionally expressive. I could put that in a negative bucket. But looking through the “no bad parts” lens, what was the protective function of not expressing emotions? It preserved family honor. It maintained public support and acceptance. So when I see it from that perspective, I have more sensitivity to what’s been happening not only in my family but in previous generations.
I can hold two truths at the same time: I see the positive intention — the strong desire to make sure your family is accepted among other Chinese or Asian families — and I can also see that when taken to an extreme, it has a negative impact, because I have to keep everything inside.
DJ: How do you walk someone through the workbook from silence to self-acceptance? What are some of the milestones?
Sam: I break it up into a few sections. The first opens with a Chinese proverb: “So ashamed, my ancestors of eight generations can feel it.” That helps people realize — even if they’re not aware of it — the depth of how Asian shame is different from traditional Western shame. There’s a lot of generational pressure not to shame the family or culture.
As a first-generation immigrant, a lot of this was implicit pressure, never stated: How do I present myself well? Do well so that my family can be accepted into mainstream America.
The first section is about understanding shame and honor in general — a bit of historical context — but it also moves readers toward understanding their nervous system. Not good or bad, yes or no, but: how is your nervous system impacted in your family? When did you learn that hiding emotions was safer than being seen? What emotional patterns started before you were even aware of them?
I’m actually trying not to shame shame in doing this — giving clients the freedom to notice: did your body get tight when certain things happened? When did you feel more comfortable to relax? Which feelings felt dangerous in your body? The book The Body Keeps the Score speaks to this. Asians are more likely to internalize physical symptoms, and may be more readily aware of physiological reactions even when they’re not aware of their emotions. So I emphasize helping readers tap into their physiological reactions to better understand their lived experience.
DJ: That is so powerful. As you describe raising our awareness — not only of feelings but of the body’s response, which literally goes back into our DNA and epigenetics for generations — there’s so much we have to do with that, because it can’t just sit there. It will fester and come out sideways. And for Asian Americans, it can express in “good” ways like perfectionism and working super hard, but not from a place of health.
Sam: Yes, that’s probably an area most people aren’t familiar with. People understand that shame can cause addiction, but shame can also lead to perfectionism, workaholism — this need to always do it right without understanding what’s driving the behavior. I work with a lot of tech workers, and some don’t understand why they’re driven to always get the next promotion, better job title, keep moving up. They say, “I don’t know — this is just what I’ve been taught, to always improve.” I ask, “How’s your body feeling?” And the body is usually working overtime. It’s like a mirage — as they get closer, it fades and another one appears.
DJ: We have so much more to explore — and that’s what your workbook does. It walks readers through those steps, raises awareness of thoughts, feelings, and the body’s response, and moves toward health and healing. What does health and healing actually look like — for oneself and in relationships?
Sam: For me it’s about integration. A lot of my clients are dealing with addiction of some kind — pornography, cannabis, alcohol are very common, especially among tech workers in this area. Ironically, getting healthier does not mean perfection. It doesn’t mean you never drink or never looked at porn. What it means is they start becoming more integrated.
For example, a client might say: “Sam, I’m recognizing that this upcoming week, I have a lot coming in — at work, with family, with parents. I feel like using.” I say, “Okay — pause.” We’re getting a little deeper now. Whether they use or not, that’s one aspect. Once we work through the shame around any slip — because sometimes there’s a slip and then immense shame — once we’ve gotten through that hurdle, then we can go deeper. We can get to what we call negative core beliefs that might really be driving things. I’m not good enough. I’m powerless. I’m stupid. I’m ugly. I’m inadequate. Those core shame messages that started many years before they ever entered therapy.
There’s also a tipping-point analogy I use — like a dentist touching your gums. Most of the time it’s fine, but when the probe hits a nerve, you go “ah.” That’s something to pay attention to. I use that to help clients notice: when are we really hitting a nerve amid all these stressors? Everyone deals with stress, but sometimes you react — through drugs, alcohol, pornography — and we ask, “What happened there?”
DJ: Thank you for giving us a look at what this workbook can help readers work through. It would also be very useful to go through it in a small group rather than just individually. Thank you for creating this resource — it’s brand new, releasing on Gumroad. Go ahead and share your Substack address and how people can get the book, along with the discount code for our audience.
Sam: (laughing) I need to remember my own Substack address…
DJ: I’ve got it — it’s SamLouieTherapy.substack.com. And I’ll add a direct link in the show notes to the Gumroad page where people can purchase the ebook.
Thank you so much, Sam. I think this will be the most helpful resource you’ve created to date — alongside your personal story in Passport to Shame and your poetry for those who connect at that level.
Sam: And DJ, as much as you’ve noticed my writings on Asian shame — you may be the biggest supporter of anything Asian shame that I know of. I appreciate your support.
DJ: Thank you. This is good teamwork — we can’t do it alone. It’s such an encouragement to find others in the same space, really bringing us to a place of healing and wholeness amid our same cultures, between cultures, and across family backgrounds. Thank you. So great to connect with you again.
Sam: Thank you, DJ. And thank you, everyone, for listening and watching this episode of the Erasing Shame podcast. Subscribe and connect with us at erasingshame.com.